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Post Posted: 2013-01-02 21:14:32  
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Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?



 
Post Posted: 2013-01-02 21:34:14  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

LMAO @ "underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men"

Idk, I guess it is they way that most of the world views men as a gender and what is expected of you. Gay men now are about self preservation (I am not such and such way so don't bring it around me) instead of self liberation (which is why we as gay men are starting to get the rights that we deserve in the first damn place).

Lesbians don't really have this problem, which is why they are at the forefront as a group.

LOL

You laugh, but i was reading an article, mainly examining the mentally of poor WHITE men who commit hate crimes and it said they see themselves as agents/police in some sort of fight to uphold masculine ideals. This process gives them a sort of pride and self worth since they don't really have anything else of materual or relevant worth.

I imagine it is even more imperative for minority men since they have even less access than poor white men.
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-02 22:03:52  
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Post Posted: 2013-01-02 22:18:50  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

LMAO @ "underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men"

Idk, I guess it is they way that most of the world views men as a gender and what is expected of you. Gay men now are about self preservation (I am not such and such way so don't bring it around me) instead of self liberation (which is why we as gay men are starting to get the rights that we deserve in the first damn place).

Lesbians don't really have this problem, which is why they are at the forefront as a group.

2013-01-02 21:34:14

LOL

You laugh, but i was reading an article, mainly examining the mentally of poor WHITE men who commit hate crimes and it said they see themselves as agents/police in some sort of fight to uphold masculine ideals. This process gives them a sort of pride and self worth since they don't really have anything else of materual or relevant worth.

I imagine it is even more imperative for minority men since they have even less access than poor white men.

2013-01-02 21:42:19

And I completely agree with the article's conclusion. It is more of a pride and self preservation issue b.c one may feel that it is the ONLY way to validate themselves as men. It is quite depressing actually.

 
Post Posted: 2013-01-02 22:21:36  
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idk, i guess the same reason why some people hate others due to skin color
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-02 23:36:04  
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they uncomfortable being attracted to it
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Judge Me by the people I avoid 😒



 
Post Posted: 2013-01-03 08:18:55  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

they uncomfortable being attracted to it

They need to step their dick up then.
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-03 16:51:00  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

2013-01-03 15:11:45

Ignorance is a beast. Smile

I honestly don't think the main cause is ignorance, though it is a contributing factor.

I think it a need to establish a power relationship when you are powerless.

Like the bully picking on the nerd.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that black and other minority men are vaugnted as "more masculine" than white men which makes them want to prove that even more.
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-03 16:54:21  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

LMAOOO I know right. I have long and straight hair. And I'm not fem but ghetto,thug acting dudes are always bothered by my presence. I have no idea why. It irritates me.
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-03 16:55:40  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

LML I dont think its exclusive to only those type of men, but people like to feel accepted, people are sheep if it goes against the grain they fear it, like the way the new kid in the class is hated intially
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-03 17:06:05  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

2013-01-03 15:11:45

Ignorance is a beast. Smile

2013-01-03 16:51:00

I honestly don't think the main cause is ignorance, though it is a contributing factor.

I think it a need to establish a power relationship when you are powerless.

Like the bully picking on the nerd.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that black and other minority men are vaugnted as "more masculine" than white men which makes them want to prove that even more.

2013-01-03 16:58:33

What I mean is - I don't think anger as a response to gender non-conformity is exclusive to the bottom of the food chain. It's like looking at a piece of paper through a telescope and seeing underclass, poor, minority etc. and forgetting that the top of the pyramid is just as chaotic and nonsensical. It's a way of thinking that is incorporated throughout our society by our cultural paradigm... a paradigm that is in desperate need of revision. Wink

but most violence against gays is commited by undercass, poor and uneducated men, who just so happen to comprise blacks, latinos, etc.



 
Post Posted: 2013-01-03 17:27:27  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

2013-01-03 15:11:45

Ignorance is a beast. Smile

2013-01-03 16:51:00

I honestly don't think the main cause is ignorance, though it is a contributing factor.

I think it a need to establish a power relationship when you are powerless.

Like the bully picking on the nerd.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that black and other minority men are vaugnted as "more masculine" than white men which makes them want to prove that even more.

2013-01-03 16:58:33

What I mean is - I don't think anger as a response to gender non-conformity is exclusive to the bottom of the food chain. It's like looking at a piece of paper through a telescope and seeing underclass, poor, minority etc. and forgetting that the top of the pyramid is just as chaotic and nonsensical. It's a way of thinking that is incorporated throughout our society by our cultural paradigm... a paradigm that is in desperate need of revision. Wink

2013-01-03 17:06:05

but most violence against gays is commited by undercass, poor and uneducated men, who just so happen to comprise blacks, latinos, etc.

2013-01-03 17:17:55

Well.. I see your opinion and I raise you a question... How many gays have suffered at the hands of Leviticus 20:13 (on detestable gay relations), and what evidence do you have that these individuals are economically stricken and confined to the status of minority?

There's absolutely NO evidence that gays were killed through the enacting to the holiness code during mosaic times.

And the Israelites were a poor, wandering MINORITY that had been in capitivity by the Egyptians, Babylonians, Cananites etc whom all practiced homosexuality and idolatry.

Anti-homosexual bible verses are most likely borne from a need for nationalism and speration from the many peoples who dominated them duing that time.
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-03 17:46:03  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

Inability to predesignate someone. Putting people in boxes is very easy, and doing anything other than that requires thinking. It also takes away from the imposed standard of norm that people have grown accustomed to. Anything that deviates from that is considered "less" in the eyes of people who may not have the self-awareness and/or objectivity of their own life that is a fundamental tenet of introspection. Doing so would ultimately cause a rejection of the "system" which would allegedly lead to complete and utter chaos.
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-03 18:45:42  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

2013-01-03 15:11:45

Ignorance is a beast. Smile

2013-01-03 16:51:00

I honestly don't think the main cause is ignorance, though it is a contributing factor.

I think it a need to establish a power relationship when you are powerless.

Like the bully picking on the nerd.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that black and other minority men are vaugnted as "more masculine" than white men which makes them want to prove that even more.

2013-01-03 16:58:33

What I mean is - I don't think anger as a response to gender non-conformity is exclusive to the bottom of the food chain. It's like looking at a piece of paper through a telescope and seeing underclass, poor, minority etc. and forgetting that the top of the pyramid is just as chaotic and nonsensical. It's a way of thinking that is incorporated throughout our society by our cultural paradigm... a paradigm that is in desperate need of revision. Wink

2013-01-03 17:06:05

but most violence against gays is commited by undercass, poor and uneducated men, who just so happen to comprise blacks, latinos, etc.

2013-01-03 17:17:55

Well.. I see your opinion and I raise you a question... How many gays have suffered at the hands of Leviticus 20:13 (on detestable gay relations), and what evidence do you have that these individuals are economically stricken and confined to the status of minority?

2013-01-03 17:27:27

There's absolutely NO evidence that gays were killed through the enacting to the holiness code during mosaic times.

And the Israelites were a poor, wandering MINORITY that had been in capitivity by the Egyptians, Babylonians, Cananites etc whom all practiced homosexuality and idolatry.

Anti-homosexual bible verses are most likely borne from a need for nationalism and speration from the many peoples who dominated them duing that time.

2013-01-03 18:13:43

I disagree with the time frame you use to make your judgement. I see you have attempted to dabble in history a tad. Could you remind me how the KKK felt about gays (considering that was more recent)? Also, could you remind me why there was a need to repeal "don't ask don't tell" and the consequences of hyper masculinity and sexual repression?

The KKK was originally made up of POOR whites who, ironically enough, used race distinctions to make them feel better about themselves in relation to blacks. At one time black enslaved Africans and white indentured servants were in the exact same conditions despite their race differences until they decided to run away together one day and the rich white power structutre put an end to that. This idea can be stratified to their views on homosexuals. Even today, more educated affluent whites tend to have more liberal views on homosexuality.

Im not too sure of the origin of the don't ask don't tell. But I'd imagine it comes from the original school of thought that all men can be tempted by homosexuality and in order to keep troop solidarity, homosexuality should be banished from the military to keep a masculine image. Also, you should note that it is mostly poor whites, poor blacks etc that go to the military. Most rich families don't send their children to the slaughter and most affluent kids don't enlist either.

Im not saying it's ALL the time that poverty, under achievment, and being uneducated is the only factor that plays a part in irrational, violent homophobia but it should be definately looked at as one of the top three factors, if not number one.

Minorty and black men usually find themselves in prime position that poor whites do more often than not because of discrimination.These conditions of being poor and discriminated against makes one cleave to ideals and attributes that you feel you posess that make you better than a homosexual, and since these ideal and attributes are ALL YOU HAVE, this can make for violent outcomes when you feel you are being encrotched upon.
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-04 16:32:46  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

2013-01-03 15:11:45

Ignorance is a beast. Smile

2013-01-03 16:51:00

I honestly don't think the main cause is ignorance, though it is a contributing factor.

I think it a need to establish a power relationship when you are powerless.

Like the bully picking on the nerd.

This is further exacerbated by the fact that black and other minority men are vaugnted as "more masculine" than white men which makes them want to prove that even more.

2013-01-03 16:58:33

What I mean is - I don't think anger as a response to gender non-conformity is exclusive to the bottom of the food chain. It's like looking at a piece of paper through a telescope and seeing underclass, poor, minority etc. and forgetting that the top of the pyramid is just as chaotic and nonsensical. It's a way of thinking that is incorporated throughout our society by our cultural paradigm... a paradigm that is in desperate need of revision. Wink

2013-01-03 17:06:05

but most violence against gays is commited by undercass, poor and uneducated men, who just so happen to comprise blacks, latinos, etc.

2013-01-03 17:17:55

Well.. I see your opinion and I raise you a question... How many gays have suffered at the hands of Leviticus 20:13 (on detestable gay relations), and what evidence do you have that these individuals are economically stricken and confined to the status of minority?

2013-01-03 17:27:27

There's absolutely NO evidence that gays were killed through the enacting to the holiness code during mosaic times.

And the Israelites were a poor, wandering MINORITY that had been in capitivity by the Egyptians, Babylonians, Cananites etc whom all practiced homosexuality and idolatry.

Anti-homosexual bible verses are most likely borne from a need for nationalism and speration from the many peoples who dominated them duing that time.

2013-01-03 18:13:43

I disagree with the time frame you use to make your judgement. I see you have attempted to dabble in history a tad. Could you remind me how the KKK felt about gays (considering that was more recent)? Also, could you remind me why there was a need to repeal "don't ask don't tell" and the consequences of hyper masculinity and sexual repression?

2013-01-03 18:45:42

The KKK was originally made up of POOR whites who, ironically enough, used race distinctions to make them feel better about themselves in relation to blacks. At one time black enslaved Africans and white indentured servants were in the exact same conditions despite their race differences until they decided to run away together one day and the rich white power structutre put an end to that. This idea can be stratified to their views on homosexuals. Even today, more educated affluent whites tend to have more liberal views on homosexuality.

Im not too sure of the origin of the don't ask don't tell. But I'd imagine it comes from the original school of thought that all men can be tempted by homosexuality and in order to keep troop solidarity, homosexuality should be banished from the military to keep a masculine image. Also, you should note that it is mostly poor whites, poor blacks etc that go to the military. Most rich families don't send their children to the slaughter and most affluent kids don't enlist either.

Im not saying it's ALL the time that poverty, under achievment, and being uneducated is the only factor that plays a part in irrational, violent homophobia but it should be definately looked at as one of the top three factors, if not number one.

Minorty and black men usually find themselves in prime position that poor whites do more often than not because of discrimination.These conditions of being poor and discriminated against makes one cleave to ideals and attributes that you feel you posess that make you better than a homosexual, and since these ideal and attributes are ALL YOU HAVE, this can make for violent outcomes when you feel you are being encrotched upon.

2013-01-04 15:56:36

You lost me at "The KKK was originally made up of POOR whites...". Actually.. every one of your posts have contained many statements that made my head spin because of how fallacious they were. I like checking facts.. but most of what you say is outright misconstrued nonsense... I believe that your opinions are bought and paid for and promote an agenda that is as disgusting as the bullshit you have pedaled throughout our discussion. I think you are probably a white guy parading as a black guy also because your views are so alien to the reality that clearly contradicts your poor minorities = gay bashing degenerate agenda.

Right about now you can imagine me slowly backing away with you - smiling and nodding - and looking for the nearest sheeple to latch onto because clearly even they are more Earthly than You.

Blah blah blah

Shut the fuck up.

Thanx for the concession, though.
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-04 18:10:28  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

I think it angers people who generally have a problem with challenging their own mindsets - not particularly men who fall in the categories of minority, poor, underclass, etc. (though many of them tend not to have access to the resources which encourage self-evaluation.)

Pardon me while I wax quasi-philosophical and somewhat melodramatic: We've been taught that knowledge is power and indeed it is. Knowledge is the power that liberates us from conformist, intolerant, archaic point-of-views that otherwise inhibits progressive ideals from coming to the fore. Apropos the intersection of gender-roles and sexuality, I’ve come to realize that beliefs connected to those two dynamics are the hardest to adjust in almost anyone. Gender norms and sexuality are not only ingrained in us since birth, but are usually connected to some deep-seated spiritual beliefs that over the course of our lives define who we are as people. If what’s been ingrained in us is ever challenged as not-quite-right, then we tend to reject the views that are confronting our own ; in other words, we stick to what we (think we) know. It’s sad because challenging your own ideals about some of life’s basic tenets is usually what effectuates inner growth and societal advancement.
_________________
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-05 14:35:57  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

2013-01-04 18:10:28

I think it angers people who generally have a problem with challenging their own mindsets - not particularly men who fall in the categories of minority, poor, underclass, etc. (though many of them tend not to have access to the resources which encourage self-evaluation.)

Pardon me while I wax quasi-philosophical and somewhat melodramatic: We've been taught that knowledge is power and indeed it is. Knowledge is the power that liberates us from conformist, intolerant, archaic point-of-views that otherwise inhibits progressive ideals from coming to the fore. Apropos the intersection of gender-roles and sexuality, I’ve come to realize that beliefs connected to those two dynamics are the hardest to adjust in almost anyone. Gender norms and sexuality are not only ingrained in us since birth, but are usually connected to some deep-seated spiritual beliefs that over the course of our lives define who we are as people. If what’s been ingrained in us is ever challenged as not-quite-right, then we tend to reject the views that are confronting our own ; in other words, we stick to what we (think we) know. It’s sad because challenging your own ideals about some of life’s basic tenets is usually what effectuates inner growth and societal advancement.

I was thinking, and this may be far left but:

I think our society engenders in men a sense of entitlement and this breeds in the homophobe sociopathy (for lack of a better term) or sociopathic tendencies.

I think these men fully understand what they are doing, they just don't give a fuck. There are lots of things ingrained in us as children but we don't follow these ideologies/norms. The gender non-conformist is a prime example.

Think about it: Think of all the times in your life you've encountered a culture or person you "don't understand". Does it foster a violent reaction simply because you don't understand it or it challenges your mindset?

I also think this violnt behavior has its own positive feedback loop for any man since our society rewards men who are homophobic. Its like a dog: you give him a trea, he will continue to do the same trick over and over in order to receive the reward.

Most of these men:

1.lack remorse (often think the victim deserves it)
2.have a grandiose sense of self importance(thinks its his right as a man to defend gender norms. most think all homosexuals wan them sexually)
3.are manipulative(this mostly speaks to the DL man who uses homophobic attitudes to manipulate public perception about his sexuality)
3.are callouse (lack remorse; don't see victim as human since they "violated" gender norms.)
4.lack empathy(Don't see gender non-conformist as human).

I think it also depends on how deeply entrenched this sense of entitlement and sense of gender norms are which will explain how far some are willing to go with violent behavior. Also how much of a reward this behavior will give them.

In the black and latino community, homophobia is prized and a mark of honor. Almost expected if one is to be validated as a man. Once validated, it opens the well-spring to respect, respect that one does not readily get in the real world.
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-05 16:04:49  
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I don't buy the lack of understanding being the sole motivating force for the violence. Human civilization would never have flourished if humans were that xenophobic.

I think its deeper than that....much deeper and more complex.
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-05 16:29:30  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

2013-01-04 18:10:28

I think it angers people who generally have a problem with challenging their own mindsets - not particularly men who fall in the categories of minority, poor, underclass, etc. (though many of them tend not to have access to the resources which encourage self-evaluation.)

Pardon me while I wax quasi-philosophical and somewhat melodramatic: We've been taught that knowledge is power and indeed it is. Knowledge is the power that liberates us from conformist, intolerant, archaic point-of-views that otherwise inhibits progressive ideals from coming to the fore. Apropos the intersection of gender-roles and sexuality, I’ve come to realize that beliefs connected to those two dynamics are the hardest to adjust in almost anyone. Gender norms and sexuality are not only ingrained in us since birth, but are usually connected to some deep-seated spiritual beliefs that over the course of our lives define who we are as people. If what’s been ingrained in us is ever challenged as not-quite-right, then we tend to reject the views that are confronting our own ; in other words, we stick to what we (think we) know. It’s sad because challenging your own ideals about some of life’s basic tenets is usually what effectuates inner growth and societal advancement.

2013-01-05 14:35:57

I was thinking, and this may be far left but:

I think our society engenders in men a sense of entitlement and this breeds in the homophobe sociopathy (for lack of a better term) or sociopathic tendencies.

I think these men fully understand what they are doing, they just don't give a fuck. There are lots of things ingrained in us as children but we don't follow these ideologies/norms. The gender non-conformist is a prime example.

Think about it: Think of all the times in your life you've encountered a culture or person you "don't understand". Does it foster a violent reaction simply because you don't understand it or it challenges your mindset?

I also think this violnt behavior has its own positive feedback loop for any man since our society rewards men who are homophobic. Its like a dog: you give him a trea, he will continue to do the same trick over and over in order to receive the reward.

Most of these men:

1.lack remorse (often think the victim deserves it)
2.have a grandiose sense of self importance(thinks its his right as a man to defend gender norms. most think all homosexuals wan them sexually)
3.are manipulative(this mostly speaks to the DL man who uses homophobic attitudes to manipulate public perception about his sexuality)
3.are callouse (lack remorse; don't see victim as human since they "violated" gender norms.)
4.lack empathy(Don't see gender non-conformist as human).

I think it also depends on how deeply entrenched this sense of entitlement and sense of gender norms are which will explain how far some are willing to go with violent behavior. Also how much of a reward this behavior will give them.

In the black and latino community, homophobia is prized and a mark of honor. Almost expected if one is to be validated as a man. Once validated, it opens the well-spring to respect, respect that one does not readily get in the real world.

Puddn, I would just like to say that your insight is very searing and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me. I hope that my analysis below indicates that I have understood you.

We don’t totally disagree, and I don’t find your views to be far left at all – there is definitely a sense of entitlement amongst our straight male counterparts, particularly those of the alpha-male lot. Pardon the forthcoming tangent, but we also agree that this tends to breed psychopathic personality traits. Yet, if we are going to make this accusation, then I cannot comfortably say these men fully understand the impact of their hatemongering and they simply just don’t give a fuck. I would argue that like with almost any sociopathic behavior (be it salient in one individual or manifested in a larger sociological context), the ones affect by it almost always lack the self-awareness needed to identify and bring resolve to their condition, commonly brought on by a number factors, not least of which are social and environmental ones. Not to be disingenuous, either, but that is not to say these vehement conformist are, therefore, completely absolved from being a blameworthy collective; indeed they are, personal responsibility is just that – personal. And that is the difference between a male gender non-conformist and the people we are speaking about: somewhere along the lines a sense of personal responsibility, integrity, and self-evaluation became an advance over the positive domestic and societal reinforcements regarding gender conformity. I know this is certainly why I am a tolerant of other cultures (needless to say it helps that I was raised to be so.) Getting back on topic, another point on which we will not quarrel are the 5 traits you used to describe these “angry” gender conformist men; they certainly possess every one of those traits, but in terms of causation I say these traits stem from other factors learned, understood or believed since early childhood/adolescence. If I’m correct, you understand them TO BE the cause themselves; academically, that means I would call their behavior characteristics sociopathic and you would call it psychopathic. (Humbly, my degrees are not in psychology, so please know that I do not deign to be right.) What’s more, you also bring up an excellent point about the extent of the violent behavior being commensurate with the reward. Extreme behavior is often in search of a grandiose recompense (which is usually more like comeuppance in the end.) Homophobia, being a tool for validation in the black and Latino community as pointed out, is exactly that type of behavior that seeks to do this! But I think that is a sociologically perpetuated cancer within the community that engenders those 5 traits within men, instead of it being the other way around.
_________________
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-05 17:00:59  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

2013-01-04 18:10:28

I think it angers people who generally have a problem with challenging their own mindsets - not particularly men who fall in the categories of minority, poor, underclass, etc. (though many of them tend not to have access to the resources which encourage self-evaluation.)

Pardon me while I wax quasi-philosophical and somewhat melodramatic: We've been taught that knowledge is power and indeed it is. Knowledge is the power that liberates us from conformist, intolerant, archaic point-of-views that otherwise inhibits progressive ideals from coming to the fore. Apropos the intersection of gender-roles and sexuality, I’ve come to realize that beliefs connected to those two dynamics are the hardest to adjust in almost anyone. Gender norms and sexuality are not only ingrained in us since birth, but are usually connected to some deep-seated spiritual beliefs that over the course of our lives define who we are as people. If what’s been ingrained in us is ever challenged as not-quite-right, then we tend to reject the views that are confronting our own ; in other words, we stick to what we (think we) know. It’s sad because challenging your own ideals about some of life’s basic tenets is usually what effectuates inner growth and societal advancement.

2013-01-05 14:35:57

I was thinking, and this may be far left but:

I think our society engenders in men a sense of entitlement and this breeds in the homophobe sociopathy (for lack of a better term) or sociopathic tendencies.

I think these men fully understand what they are doing, they just don't give a fuck. There are lots of things ingrained in us as children but we don't follow these ideologies/norms. The gender non-conformist is a prime example.

Think about it: Think of all the times in your life you've encountered a culture or person you "don't understand". Does it foster a violent reaction simply because you don't understand it or it challenges your mindset?

I also think this violnt behavior has its own positive feedback loop for any man since our society rewards men who are homophobic. Its like a dog: you give him a trea, he will continue to do the same trick over and over in order to receive the reward.

Most of these men:

1.lack remorse (often think the victim deserves it)
2.have a grandiose sense of self importance(thinks its his right as a man to defend gender norms. most think all homosexuals wan them sexually)
3.are manipulative(this mostly speaks to the DL man who uses homophobic attitudes to manipulate public perception about his sexuality)
3.are callouse (lack remorse; don't see victim as human since they "violated" gender norms.)
4.lack empathy(Don't see gender non-conformist as human).

I think it also depends on how deeply entrenched this sense of entitlement and sense of gender norms are which will explain how far some are willing to go with violent behavior. Also how much of a reward this behavior will give them.

In the black and latino community, homophobia is prized and a mark of honor. Almost expected if one is to be validated as a man. Once validated, it opens the well-spring to respect, respect that one does not readily get in the real world.

2013-01-05 16:29:30

Puddn, I would just like to say that your insight is very searing and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me. I hope that my analysis below indicates that I have understood you.

We don’t totally disagree, and I don’t find your views to be far left at all – there is definitely a sense of entitlement amongst our straight male counterparts, particularly those of the alpha-male lot. Pardon the forthcoming tangent, but we also agree that this tends to breed psychopathic personality traits. Yet, if we are going to make this accusation, then I cannot comfortably say these men fully understand the impact of their hatemongering and they simply just don’t give a fuck. I would argue that like with almost any sociopathic behavior (be it salient in one individual or manifested in a larger sociological context), the ones affect by it almost always lack the self-awareness needed to identify and bring resolve to their condition, commonly brought on by a number factors, not least of which are social and environmental ones. Not to be disingenuous, either, but that is not to say these vehement conformist are, therefore, completely absolved from being a blameworthy collective; indeed they are, personal responsibility is just that – personal. And that is the difference between a male gender non-conformist and the people we are speaking about: somewhere along the lines a sense of personal responsibility, integrity, and self-evaluation became an advance over the positive domestic and societal reinforcements regarding gender conformity. I know this is certainly why I am a tolerant of other cultures (needless to say it helps that I was raised to be so.) Getting back on topic, another point on which we will not quarrel are the 5 traits you used to describe these “angry” gender conformist men; they certainly possess every one of those traits, but in terms of causation I say these traits stem from other factors learned, understood or believed since early childhood/adolescence. If I’m correct, you understand them TO BE the cause themselves; academically, that means I would call their behavior characteristics sociopathic and you would call it psychopathic. (Humbly, my degrees are not in psychology, so please know that I do not deign to be right.) What’s more, you also bring up an excellent point about the extent of the violent behavior being commensurate with the reward. Extreme behavior is often in search of a grandiose recompense (which is usually more like comeuppance in the end.) Homophobia, being a tool for validation in the black and Latino community as pointed out, is exactly that type of behavior that seeks to do this! But I think that is a sociologically perpetuated cancer within the community that engenders those 5 traits within men, instead of it being the other way around.

I agree.

I used psychopathy because it was the only thing I could use to describe the behavior and the attitudes behavior. I don't think it's true psychopathy but they do share similarities.

I think the sense of entilement does help mobilize, if you will, some of these men into violent action because it is justified within the community.

It's similar to how whites felt justified in killing blacks. Some of the public lynchings garnerd the participation of hundreds and sometimes THOUSANDS of people because, as whites, they felt it was their duty(as belonging to a greater good) to exact a sort of "justice" by killing black men and women. This sense of "duty" makes one cold and callous toward the "enemy". It also validates your superiority in the ritualistic killing or harming of the enemey. Thusly, we can see a myriad of sociopathic tendencies as traits take root. Go google the lynching of Jesse Washington, and I bet you would say that the participants were sociopathic in the sense of their attitudes towards blacks.

Its much the same for men whether white, black, latino etc who feel it's their "duty", as belonging to a greater good, to enact violence on those they feel do not conform to the gender hierarchy.

All of this, in my opinion, is based on male supremacy which probably pre-dated written language. It's so fundamental to Western society we know of nothing else.
 
Post Posted: 2013-01-05 18:28:10  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

2013-01-04 18:10:28

I think it angers people who generally have a problem with challenging their own mindsets - not particularly men who fall in the categories of minority, poor, underclass, etc. (though many of them tend not to have access to the resources which encourage self-evaluation.)

Pardon me while I wax quasi-philosophical and somewhat melodramatic: We've been taught that knowledge is power and indeed it is. Knowledge is the power that liberates us from conformist, intolerant, archaic point-of-views that otherwise inhibits progressive ideals from coming to the fore. Apropos the intersection of gender-roles and sexuality, I’ve come to realize that beliefs connected to those two dynamics are the hardest to adjust in almost anyone. Gender norms and sexuality are not only ingrained in us since birth, but are usually connected to some deep-seated spiritual beliefs that over the course of our lives define who we are as people. If what’s been ingrained in us is ever challenged as not-quite-right, then we tend to reject the views that are confronting our own ; in other words, we stick to what we (think we) know. It’s sad because challenging your own ideals about some of life’s basic tenets is usually what effectuates inner growth and societal advancement.

2013-01-05 14:35:57

I was thinking, and this may be far left but:

I think our society engenders in men a sense of entitlement and this breeds in the homophobe sociopathy (for lack of a better term) or sociopathic tendencies.

I think these men fully understand what they are doing, they just don't give a fuck. There are lots of things ingrained in us as children but we don't follow these ideologies/norms. The gender non-conformist is a prime example.

Think about it: Think of all the times in your life you've encountered a culture or person you "don't understand". Does it foster a violent reaction simply because you don't understand it or it challenges your mindset?

I also think this violnt behavior has its own positive feedback loop for any man since our society rewards men who are homophobic. Its like a dog: you give him a trea, he will continue to do the same trick over and over in order to receive the reward.

Most of these men:

1.lack remorse (often think the victim deserves it)
2.have a grandiose sense of self importance(thinks its his right as a man to defend gender norms. most think all homosexuals wan them sexually)
3.are manipulative(this mostly speaks to the DL man who uses homophobic attitudes to manipulate public perception about his sexuality)
3.are callouse (lack remorse; don't see victim as human since they "violated" gender norms.)
4.lack empathy(Don't see gender non-conformist as human).

I think it also depends on how deeply entrenched this sense of entitlement and sense of gender norms are which will explain how far some are willing to go with violent behavior. Also how much of a reward this behavior will give them.

In the black and latino community, homophobia is prized and a mark of honor. Almost expected if one is to be validated as a man. Once validated, it opens the well-spring to respect, respect that one does not readily get in the real world.

2013-01-05 16:29:30

Puddn, I would just like to say that your insight is very searing and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me. I hope that my analysis below indicates that I have understood you.

We don’t totally disagree, and I don’t find your views to be far left at all – there is definitely a sense of entitlement amongst our straight male counterparts, particularly those of the alpha-male lot. Pardon the forthcoming tangent, but we also agree that this tends to breed psychopathic personality traits. Yet, if we are going to make this accusation, then I cannot comfortably say these men fully understand the impact of their hatemongering and they simply just don’t give a fuck. I would argue that like with almost any sociopathic behavior (be it salient in one individual or manifested in a larger sociological context), the ones affect by it almost always lack the self-awareness needed to identify and bring resolve to their condition, commonly brought on by a number factors, not least of which are social and environmental ones. Not to be disingenuous, either, but that is not to say these vehement conformist are, therefore, completely absolved from being a blameworthy collective; indeed they are, personal responsibility is just that – personal. And that is the difference between a male gender non-conformist and the people we are speaking about: somewhere along the lines a sense of personal responsibility, integrity, and self-evaluation became an advance over the positive domestic and societal reinforcements regarding gender conformity. I know this is certainly why I am a tolerant of other cultures (needless to say it helps that I was raised to be so.) Getting back on topic, another point on which we will not quarrel are the 5 traits you used to describe these “angry” gender conformist men; they certainly possess every one of those traits, but in terms of causation I say these traits stem from other factors learned, understood or believed since early childhood/adolescence. If I’m correct, you understand them TO BE the cause themselves; academically, that means I would call their behavior characteristics sociopathic and you would call it psychopathic. (Humbly, my degrees are not in psychology, so please know that I do not deign to be right.) What’s more, you also bring up an excellent point about the extent of the violent behavior being commensurate with the reward. Extreme behavior is often in search of a grandiose recompense (which is usually more like comeuppance in the end.) Homophobia, being a tool for validation in the black and Latino community as pointed out, is exactly that type of behavior that seeks to do this! But I think that is a sociologically perpetuated cancer within the community that engenders those 5 traits within men, instead of it being the other way around.

2013-01-05 17:00:59

I agree.

I used psychopathy because it was the only thing I could use to describe the behavior and the attitudes behavior. I don't think it's true psychopathy but they do share similarities.

I think the sense of entilement does help mobilize, if you will, some of these men into violent action because it is justified within the community.

It's similar to how whites felt justified in killing blacks. Some of the public lynchings garnerd the participation of hundreds and sometimes THOUSANDS of people because, as whites, they felt it was their duty(as belonging to a greater good) to exact a sort of "justice" by killing black men and women. This sense of "duty" makes one cold and callous toward the "enemy". It also validates your superiority in the ritualistic killing or harming of the enemey. Thusly, we can see a myriad of sociopathic tendencies as traits take root. Go google the lynching of Jesse Washington, and I bet you would say that the participants were sociopathic in the sense of their attitudes towards blacks.

Its much the same for men whether white, black, latino etc who feel it's their "duty", as belonging to a greater good, to enact violence on those they feel do not conform to the gender hierarchy.

All of this, in my opinion, is based on male supremacy which probably pre-dated written language. It's so fundamental to Western society we know of nothing else.

I definitely despise male supremacy (unless, of course, I'm in a relationship. I'm the alpha male and shawty is the submissive one. But then, I tend to be a sordid creature.)

More importantly, duty and protection are natural male inclinations. It's a real horror when those natural tendencies are manipulated since early on.

(PS...the lynching of Jesse Washington was a significant part of the thesis for my first masters. ::37:Smile
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Post Posted: 2013-01-05 18:38:08  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

2013-01-04 18:10:28

I think it angers people who generally have a problem with challenging their own mindsets - not particularly men who fall in the categories of minority, poor, underclass, etc. (though many of them tend not to have access to the resources which encourage self-evaluation.)

Pardon me while I wax quasi-philosophical and somewhat melodramatic: We've been taught that knowledge is power and indeed it is. Knowledge is the power that liberates us from conformist, intolerant, archaic point-of-views that otherwise inhibits progressive ideals from coming to the fore. Apropos the intersection of gender-roles and sexuality, I’ve come to realize that beliefs connected to those two dynamics are the hardest to adjust in almost anyone. Gender norms and sexuality are not only ingrained in us since birth, but are usually connected to some deep-seated spiritual beliefs that over the course of our lives define who we are as people. If what’s been ingrained in us is ever challenged as not-quite-right, then we tend to reject the views that are confronting our own ; in other words, we stick to what we (think we) know. It’s sad because challenging your own ideals about some of life’s basic tenets is usually what effectuates inner growth and societal advancement.

2013-01-05 14:35:57

I was thinking, and this may be far left but:

I think our society engenders in men a sense of entitlement and this breeds in the homophobe sociopathy (for lack of a better term) or sociopathic tendencies.

I think these men fully understand what they are doing, they just don't give a fuck. There are lots of things ingrained in us as children but we don't follow these ideologies/norms. The gender non-conformist is a prime example.

Think about it: Think of all the times in your life you've encountered a culture or person you "don't understand". Does it foster a violent reaction simply because you don't understand it or it challenges your mindset?

I also think this violnt behavior has its own positive feedback loop for any man since our society rewards men who are homophobic. Its like a dog: you give him a trea, he will continue to do the same trick over and over in order to receive the reward.

Most of these men:

1.lack remorse (often think the victim deserves it)
2.have a grandiose sense of self importance(thinks its his right as a man to defend gender norms. most think all homosexuals wan them sexually)
3.are manipulative(this mostly speaks to the DL man who uses homophobic attitudes to manipulate public perception about his sexuality)
3.are callouse (lack remorse; don't see victim as human since they "violated" gender norms.)
4.lack empathy(Don't see gender non-conformist as human).

I think it also depends on how deeply entrenched this sense of entitlement and sense of gender norms are which will explain how far some are willing to go with violent behavior. Also how much of a reward this behavior will give them.

In the black and latino community, homophobia is prized and a mark of honor. Almost expected if one is to be validated as a man. Once validated, it opens the well-spring to respect, respect that one does not readily get in the real world.

2013-01-05 16:29:30

Puddn, I would just like to say that your insight is very searing and I appreciate you sharing your thoughts with me. I hope that my analysis below indicates that I have understood you.

We don’t totally disagree, and I don’t find your views to be far left at all – there is definitely a sense of entitlement amongst our straight male counterparts, particularly those of the alpha-male lot. Pardon the forthcoming tangent, but we also agree that this tends to breed psychopathic personality traits. Yet, if we are going to make this accusation, then I cannot comfortably say these men fully understand the impact of their hatemongering and they simply just don’t give a fuck. I would argue that like with almost any sociopathic behavior (be it salient in one individual or manifested in a larger sociological context), the ones affect by it almost always lack the self-awareness needed to identify and bring resolve to their condition, commonly brought on by a number factors, not least of which are social and environmental ones. Not to be disingenuous, either, but that is not to say these vehement conformist are, therefore, completely absolved from being a blameworthy collective; indeed they are, personal responsibility is just that – personal. And that is the difference between a male gender non-conformist and the people we are speaking about: somewhere along the lines a sense of personal responsibility, integrity, and self-evaluation became an advance over the positive domestic and societal reinforcements regarding gender conformity. I know this is certainly why I am a tolerant of other cultures (needless to say it helps that I was raised to be so.) Getting back on topic, another point on which we will not quarrel are the 5 traits you used to describe these “angry” gender conformist men; they certainly possess every one of those traits, but in terms of causation I say these traits stem from other factors learned, understood or believed since early childhood/adolescence. If I’m correct, you understand them TO BE the cause themselves; academically, that means I would call their behavior characteristics sociopathic and you would call it psychopathic. (Humbly, my degrees are not in psychology, so please know that I do not deign to be right.) What’s more, you also bring up an excellent point about the extent of the violent behavior being commensurate with the reward. Extreme behavior is often in search of a grandiose recompense (which is usually more like comeuppance in the end.) Homophobia, being a tool for validation in the black and Latino community as pointed out, is exactly that type of behavior that seeks to do this! But I think that is a sociologically perpetuated cancer within the community that engenders those 5 traits within men, instead of it being the other way around.

2013-01-05 17:00:59

I agree.

I used psychopathy because it was the only thing I could use to describe the behavior and the attitudes behavior. I don't think it's true psychopathy but they do share similarities.

I think the sense of entilement does help mobilize, if you will, some of these men into violent action because it is justified within the community.

It's similar to how whites felt justified in killing blacks. Some of the public lynchings garnerd the participation of hundreds and sometimes THOUSANDS of people because, as whites, they felt it was their duty(as belonging to a greater good) to exact a sort of "justice" by killing black men and women. This sense of "duty" makes one cold and callous toward the "enemy". It also validates your superiority in the ritualistic killing or harming of the enemey. Thusly, we can see a myriad of sociopathic tendencies as traits take root. Go google the lynching of Jesse Washington, and I bet you would say that the participants were sociopathic in the sense of their attitudes towards blacks.

Its much the same for men whether white, black, latino etc who feel it's their "duty", as belonging to a greater good, to enact violence on those they feel do not conform to the gender hierarchy.

All of this, in my opinion, is based on male supremacy which probably pre-dated written language. It's so fundamental to Western society we know of nothing else.

2013-01-05 18:28:10

I definitely despise male supremacy (unless, of course, I'm in a relationship. I'm the alpha male and shawty is the submissive one. But then, I tend to be a sordid creature.)

More importantly, duty and protection are natural male inclinations. It's a real horror when those natural tendencies are manipulated since early on.

(PS...the lynching of Jesse Washington was a significant part of the thesis for my first masters. ::37:Smile

I got my life from this post.
 
Post Posted: 2013-02-14 19:44:38  
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Post Posted: 2013-02-14 19:59:49  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

gender non-confromity poses a huge problem to heteronormativity. In a Judeo-Christian foundational society, that leads to hatred. Combine with the perceived notions of lowered masculinity and hypermasculinity, and you've got a gender war on your hands.
 
Post Posted: 2013-02-14 20:17:23  
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2013-01-02 21:14:32

Why does gender non-conformity make men, specifically underclass, poor, minority and underachieving men so angry?

because playing a traditional masculine role in society is all that some men have to offer...being average in society is acceptable but when a person refuses to conform it basically spits in the faces of those who try so hard to fit in

you can always tell the natural from those who are "extra"...most masculine men will feel uncomfortable but are often secure enough to tolerate things outside their comfort zone in my experience Cool

_________________
you seem pressed...why so serious? Smile
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